Episode 73: How safe is your creative work? Featuring Artemis North

A candid conversation about creative ownership, digital security, and what happens when access to your work is taken away. After a serious account hijack affecting longtime creator Artemis North, the Creative Work Hour team talks openly about breaches, recovery, community support, and practical ways artists can protect their work—without fear or shame.

[00:00:00] Greg: Hello and welcome back to another episode of The Creative Work, our podcast today is December the 20th, and we're fast approaching Christmas. I hope everyone's ready. Today we're discussing your creative work and we're gonna have a change of format. It's gonna be somewhat of an interview style today, in the room today, we have got myself, we have got Alessandra.

[00:00:24] Greg: We have got Devin, we've got Gretchen, we've got Artemis Shadows, and Bailey Alessandra. Over to you to start it off . What have we got today?

[00:00:35] Alessandra: Hi, Greg. It's hard to believe we are edging into time for packing the sleigh, tying the bows and doing all the stuff.

[00:00:43] Alessandra: You don't really think about things being taken away, stolen. Ripped off or hijacked, but sometimes this stuff happens with our creative work. One of our very special crew members of [00:01:00] Creative Work Hour is Artemis. And Artemis is a fantastic writer.

[00:01:06] Alessandra: She is a fiber artist. She is a community leader. She is a course writer, and I love her to pieces. She has been on the Hive blockchain since 2016. She's OG knows what she's doing and she had a situation come up this week that. You wouldn't think would happen to such a nice person like her.

[00:01:35] Alessandra: Artemis, hi, how are you today? And thank you for being here. We're all gonna share a little bit in this topic, but it's your story. That's the driver of our coming together today to talk about creative work and what happens when the security of it goes sideways. Would you like to tell us what [00:02:00] happened?

[00:02:00] Artemis: Thanks for the flowers. I have been on Hive since 2016. maybe I got a little cocky. I thought I had it locked down my keys. I store only locally. I don't, I didn't think I put them anywhere. And, about a month ago I logged in and went up. Why is my account powering down? What's going on?

[00:02:20] Artemis: At that time, I still had control of my account, so I changed my keys. Luckily there's a really supportive community behind me, and I had shadows and kitty girl with all of their vast knowledge help me do this. So I thought I was good. And then Thursday at p-Y-P-T-I, Couldn't vote, and I thought, what the heck?

[00:02:42] Artemis: What's going on here? I signed in with Hive Key Chain, but I couldn't sign in and it wouldn't work, come to find out they had hijacked my account again, only this time they did it really well. They had changed the recovery account, which is a person that you know really well, who has the ability to help you retrieve your [00:03:00] count.

[00:03:00] Artemis: Well, apparently after some digging by some really great people they found out way back in April, somebody had changed the recovery account. I have no idea why they waited so long. Were they learning? Were they honing their skills?

[00:03:14] Artemis: Were they playing with this? I don't know. But this person said to me, what do you do for security? I said, well, I'm running Linux and I'm doing this and I'm doing that. And he said, do you use Google? And I said, yeah. And he said, well, do you let Google save your passwords? I said, no.

[00:03:32] Artemis: I mean, that's crazy. And then I went, oh wait, long ago, before I became security savvy. That's exactly what I was doing, and I hadn't thought to go back and check to see what had been saved. So I scrolled way back and long ago I had allowed Google to save.

[00:03:51] Artemis: My password was a key like, hello, come rob me. So I got rid of all of that. There's a lesson there. Don't let Google take care of your [00:04:00] passwords. I don't know if that's how they got in and I don't know what they're up to, whether it's personal or just this huge scam, but that's what happened.

[00:04:10] Alessandra: And so you said that, the first 24 hours after something like this happens it's like the whole nervous system did it feel similar to a physical kind of thing being stolen or broken into like this is your digital creative life. And you've got a lot invested in time and effort and real world value there.

[00:04:34] Alessandra: So how was that for you?

[00:04:37] Artemis: It was like somebody broke into my house and rifled through my underwear drawer. To be honest, you're right, Alessandra. That's a lot of blogging. That's a lot of relationships. That's my name, that's my online name. Recently we had a chat on another platform about, why don't you show your face

[00:04:54] Artemis: well, since the nineties. This is who I am. I'm Artemis. I'm Artemis [00:05:00] North, and if you take the time to get to know me, you'll find out you really don't need a picture of me because you'll have everything that you need to know. So that's me, that's my name. And they took that and I thought, that's absolutely insane.

[00:05:13] Artemis: I didn't have very much in my account. It's hive, you're not gonna gain a large fortune. But I gained a large fortune in community and I felt like they had ripped that away from me.

[00:05:24] Alessandra: I can only imagine the upset. Normally we work the podcast topic questions.

[00:05:34] Alessandra: We pull them apart, we put them back together, we send it around the room. But the anticipation of, so I have to ask now rather than send it around the room, I have to ask you now. What is your plan? Now this creative violation has taken place. Your account it's blockchain.

[00:05:54] Alessandra: There was a window of time where you could get it back. You had no idea they were coming after your [00:06:00] account again. So now that window is closed. What happens next? And how are you with that?

[00:06:06] Artemis: Well, like every change there's negative, but there's also a lot of positive.

[00:06:10] Artemis: So far I found out they didn't rip my community away from me. There's a lot of support and I thank you guys very much for that my posts are still gonna be there under Artemis North. People can still read them and see them. I just can't get into my wallet. So that's a real big bonus on the blockchain.

[00:06:27] Artemis: When I really had time to think about it after cleaning up the mess in my mind, I realized the only thing that they really took from me was my crypto. What they gave me is. Acknowledging that there's a really amazing community in Hive and we take care of our own.

[00:06:45] Artemis: Maybe they did me a favor.

[00:06:47] Alessandra: Well, thank you so much for sharing that story with us. When we're, you were Artis Artemis North On the hive key chain, so all of your posts are still there because it's blockchain technology. They will forever [00:07:00] be there unchanged. It's just your access to continue further on that account.

[00:07:06] Alessandra: You can no longer post there. Is that correct?

[00:07:08] Artemis: Yes, so now I'm Artemis north.com, which is my website where I also live. I didn't really lose my name either. I just changed it a little bit.

[00:07:19] Alessandra: And you know what made me think of that, and I mentioned this to shadows and to Artemis earlier today, is I was thinking, this is not a new problem having to do with blockchain technology.

[00:07:31] Alessandra: This is a contract problem and contracts have been around for as long as people have exchanged. One thing for another Artemis situation made me think of Prince. Prince had a contract with Sony records, and that contract was not a unilaterally beneficial contract. And Prince said, you know what?

[00:07:56] Alessandra: We're done. And he said we're done. [00:08:00] I'm walking. I'm no longer working for Sony Records. And they said, fine. You can walk without your name. You'll no longer be Prince. The name belongs to us. That's our property. And from that point forward, he walked out that door and he said, you can call me the artist, formerly known as Prince.

[00:08:22] Alessandra: I love this story so much because it has Artemis written all over it. One, she's an artist, she's a fiber artist. In my head, I found some comfort in thinking of her walking outta there. Like Prince saying, I'm the fiber artist, formerly known as Artemis North. You can find me@atartemisnorth.com.

[00:08:46] Alessandra: Now artemis north.com. When did you start that website?

[00:08:50] Artemis: I'm not sure. Maybe around 2009 or sooner. I'm not a long time ago.

[00:08:57] Alessandra: And I've read your blogs from [00:09:00] that site on several different occasions, and so my thought was, well done. You that on your feet with everything going sideways, you were like, not a problem.

[00:09:12] Alessandra: Artemis north.com.

[00:09:14] Artemis: Well, funny story, Alessandra, this isn't the first time I've rebuild. There was an accident. A few years and artis north.com got deleted. It was a total accident and, it was actually kind of a favor because I wasn't really happy with that design. So when you go and read my blog, not all of the articles that have been written over the years are there, but a good chunk of them are.

[00:09:38] Artemis: And I rebuilt it and, I love it more than my original site.

[00:09:42] Alessandra: So there is an advantage, a silver lining to this little cloud people will know you as Artemis North and they'll know that you live on the interwebs and@artemisnorth.com.

[00:09:59] Alessandra: On [00:10:00] Hive. There's a certain symmetry and beauty to that you wouldn't have gone there unless something weird had happened and the string of events that happened, one after another.

[00:10:11] Artemis: You're absolutely right and if hackers hear this, I'm not giving you permission. Jackass. Sorry, can I say jackass? I think I just said it.

[00:10:19] Alessandra: We've said worse here. Mm-hmm.

[00:10:20] Artemis: Okay.

[00:10:21] Alessandra: Yeah. This is one of those podcast episodes that we have done a handful of these so that it was very interview driven. We've done one. Next in, in the tile next to Artemis is Gretchen gretchen, you have done an amazing amount of work over on YouTube.

[00:10:38] Alessandra: Tell us the name of your channel where we can find you. And was it last year that you were in the interviewees chair for the CWH podcast?

[00:10:50] Gretchen: Yes, that's that one. I'm at Imagine with Gretchen for one channel and the other one is on camera. I was doing a storytelling and [00:11:00] reading some Christmas things and we did CWH.

[00:11:03] Gretchen: It is interesting and sometimes. Nerve wracking platforms out there to traverse and to try to keep secure. Things have changed a lot. I got my master's in technology in. 1998. My first computer in the classroom was a Commodore pet. I've been doing this for a while and it's still one of those things that the security that you have to be aware of it's locking your door before you, we, before you leave the house, you just do it even though you think, oh, I'm in a safe community.

[00:11:42] Gretchen: Yeah you still, it's and you never quite know where the, oh, weaknesses are. It's nerve wracking. It's, I don't say nerve wracking. It is a point of awareness, I think is the big [00:12:00] thing. And these days, my husband just read an article to me yesterday about the advancement in spam scam type things with ai, how much better they're getting.

[00:12:15] Gretchen: And I'm thinking, everything we can do ourselves to up that security is one thing, but everything we can do like this of sharing so that an Artemis, I thank you for sharing that so that we're aware and we can help other people be aware. It, you just never know. I had an instance where I actually had invited someone to come stay with us.

[00:12:39] Gretchen: It was someone who I thought was a very good friend. Turns out he got into our computer and changed the administrator put in himself. Yeah. Not so good. So there's just amazing kind of things that happen, whether it's in real life or online, that you want to [00:13:00] trust, but you also have to look at things with a sense of awareness

[00:13:05] Alessandra: and just a little tinge of skepticism is not bad.

[00:13:11] Gretchen: Thank you for sharing that story. 'cause that is like a, that is a creepy example of an in real life violation at a digital level. And What I love about the crew of Creative Work Hour is that we honor each other's boundaries and we make it safe to describe something that's happened. We wouldn't just necessarily want anybody to know.

[00:13:37] Gretchen: And so I really appreciate Artemis and Gretchen sharing these stories because for those that will listen to this podcast, there is no shame getting outsmarted or outpaced or out. Whatever. There's no shame in that. And in fact [00:14:00] the way that we defend our own boundaries is to say, Hey, something happened.

[00:14:05] Gretchen: Something happened. I may need some help sorting it out. I may need some support in moving forward in rebuilding, and, whose car are we taking, Devin? What? What do you have to share?

[00:14:18] Devin: Thank you, Alessandra. The only example I can think of my creative work being actually stolen from me was, back in the day, and I think it's pretty common knowledge at this point that Alessandra and I are a longstanding item. So I'm not allowed to make specific date references because someone might be able to triangulate that into someone's age.

[00:14:38] Devin: So let's just say my freshman year of college, whenever that may or may not have been I had a collection of mixed tapes, cassette tapes, and a vinyl. Cassette case that I kept in my car, my two 80 zx, and I mixed, that's a creative work. Making a mix tape is an expression of your creative work.

[00:14:59] Devin: [00:15:00] Okay? And someone got into my car and stole the whole case. Just took them all, and I was heartbroken. The irony of that story is that every one of those tapes were contemporary Christian artists. So I'm sure the thief was bitterly disappointed in what they actually got out of that crime, but I hope it did them some good.

[00:15:20] Devin: You know me in this scheme of things.

[00:15:23] Alessandra: That's some Amy Grant bringing them down,

[00:15:26] Devin: right? Yeah. Rookie. Rookie mistake. So what I do now on my. Virtual creative work. My digital creative work is I keep it on multiple clouds and I keep the usernames and passwords for those clouds in one password. And that's all courtesy of Alessandra who dragged me kicking and screaming into a secure password manager.

[00:15:50] Devin: So I now have it secure and it's not perfect. But so far I haven't had any problems and I feel pretty good about where my [00:16:00] stuff is and. I will be able to get to it. Even if one of those were breached, I've got other locations where it's still intact.

[00:16:08] Alessandra: You know what that makes me think of this time of year like when the crew of creative work hour, when we do like a yearly review, some people are into reviews.

[00:16:18] Alessandra: Some of us are like, not, that's not how we roll. Some of us are like, Hmm, what might I. Dream of doing in the coming year. So whatever it is that we do around that kind of, what are the possibilities, we tend to do that in January after everybody's had a chance to put a, put all the decorations away and all of that.

[00:16:37] Alessandra: But I think it would be really helpful if we devoted if we devoted a creative work hour weekend to. Let's just take, a good audit of our own security because what I love and hate about Artemis story is that it's not how she does things now. It's not how she did things five years ago. It's how [00:17:00] we were all doing things nine years ago, 10 years ago.

[00:17:04] Alessandra: If we were using the best tools that we had to secure our stuff then we move forward and we do things that are more secure and more encrypted and more this and that and the other. But it makes me think it could behoove all of us to just take, a designated hour all at the same time.

[00:17:23] Alessandra: We can have some, like James Bond music going or something in the actual hour that we do this. And just go back to how did I use to use Google or Duck? Duck go, what? Convenient password, things that I use on my phone, do that kind of thing. So I'm wondering shadows.

[00:17:44] Alessandra: You, you taught me a lot about. Security and keeping things local. What comes up for you with this general topic of your creative work and thinking that we've got our stuff locked down and then finding out, [00:18:00] oh yeah, we do need to look at the strengths, the weaknesses, the opportunities, and the threats for our creative work.

[00:18:06] Alessandra: What comes up for you?

[00:18:08] Shadows: Well. One of the things that made me really a whole lot more militant about keeping stuff local is it was using Evernote and I had used it for numerous years and somebody got into my Evernote and turned a folder public, and that exposed a key, not for hive, thankfully it was an ethernet or E key.

[00:18:34] Shadows: I lost some money on that, but at the same time I went, yeah, I don't want to use a platform that people could actually hack into. And that's the reason I switched to obsidian, because obsidian keeps all my files on my drive or where I assign them to.

[00:18:51] Alessandra: And so all of your, are you using , I think it has a lot to do with like personalities.

[00:18:56] Alessandra: Do you store anything in a [00:19:00] cloud?

[00:19:00] Shadows: You mean a public cloud or do you mean a cloud drive?

[00:19:04] Alessandra: Like a cloud drive?

[00:19:06] Shadows: Yes. And it's sitting in my bedroom and no, it cannot be accessed remotely.

[00:19:11] Alessandra: And so do you have anything at all stored on a public cloud?

[00:19:14] Shadows: Yeah. By default that I use an iPad, it backs up to the iCloud.

[00:19:20] Alessandra: Yeah. So you have a security protocol that is very, you do these kinds of things. With your computer and your drives and you do other kinds of things with your iOS devices, is that right?

[00:19:33] Shadows: Yeah. I haven't figured out how to get iOS to back up to one of my private clouds.

[00:19:38]

[00:19:38] Alessandra: It's very interesting how in isolation you can't be secure. You have to be sharing tips and tricks with friends that are, trying to keep their own work, security, banking, all of those things. Secure. Greg, how about you? , I could see the concern on your face when you were listening to Artemis story.

[00:19:57] Alessandra: What did that bring up for you and the [00:20:00] security of your own creative work?

[00:20:02] Greg: I've had accounts hacked several times. There's a good website if you are interested to find out if you've ever been in a data breach where your email address password, phone number may have been a, in a data breach.

[00:20:18] Greg: It's have I been PWNED? That's p. WNE d.com and it was a developer that put that site together. It's free to use, I go on there periodically and you'd be surprised, a lot of these data breaches where the information is put out there, they don't even have to tell you in many instances until years after it's happened.

[00:20:40] Greg: So you could have in a data breach or not know about it for a year or two after it's happened because there's no as far as the disclosure, the way that works. So that's very interesting. I use a password manager as well. It's not one password like Devin uses. It's mine's a bit warden, but it works on the same principle.

[00:20:57] Greg: It stores your passwords and such. It's very [00:21:00] interesting what Adam has said about storing your passwords and your web browser because that's not necessarily safe to do. My memory's not the greatest. I know I've had some of my creative work stolen, but I can't remember individual instances, although one does come to mind where an idea was stolen.

[00:21:17] Greg: And I've shared with someone who was actually a friend on Twitter. I was doing Twitter spaces at the time and I had shared an idea for a new space. The next thing I knew that person had come up with the idea themselves and started to do a Twitter space on the very topic.

[00:21:32] Alessandra: Oh, can I hold up my hand and guess who it is? No, I won't.

[00:21:35] Greg: No. We won't go there. So sometimes having ADHD is a blessing 'cause , you forget things quickly, , which, doesn't drive you crazy. Or it can drive you crazy, but it doesn't drive you crazy 'cause you forget some of the madness.

[00:21:47] Greg: So that's me. Thank you.

[00:21:48] Alessandra: Yeah. Bailey, how about you? And you are a writer, you are a musician, you are a composer. You do all kinds of things. And how do you keep your, [00:22:00] how do you keep your stuff secure? Because I am sure there are people up to no good. Who would love to sample the Bailey catalog of work.

[00:22:09] Bailey: I was thinking about this and I don't think I've had any creative work stolen. There was one time where my entire Google account was taken over and I had to verify my identity with Google, over the phone and everything, and finally got it back, but. I don't think I've had any creative work stolen, and I'm grateful for that.

[00:22:31] Bailey: Use score is pretty cool because whenever you post, they actually have a built-in trademark kind of thing. And you can specifically choose which kind you have so that people can or cannot use your work in their own work. So they're actually really cool about that. They're forward thinking with it.

[00:22:48] Bailey: It's really awesome. But I think when it comes to my creative work, I am often afraid to , share it online. There's like many Reddit groups that are [00:23:00] built around sharing your work and having someone else edit it if you edit theirs. And it freaks me out because the whole process requires that you put your work out there without any protection.

[00:23:12] Bailey: And in general, that's not something I really do. That's one of the reasons I think Hive is really cool because it's a lot harder to steal. And also I think that when it comes to my creative work, I'm like most protective of that. Like even over my physical possessions. Yeah, it's like my mind and.

[00:23:33] Bailey: That is more important to me than my physical possession. So yeah, I guess what I've learned throughout this whole thing is that a lot of the things that we think are secure are a lot less secure than we think. Yeah. And I think that I've learned a lot just from talking to you guys about this.

[00:23:49] Bailey: So yeah. Thank you guys.

[00:23:50] Alessandra: Yeah. Thanks for sharing that story with us. Greg is beautiful in how, if there is a tool that we mention in a podcast episode, he will [00:24:00] gather that and drop it into the show notes. So there's the one that he mentioned, Greg, what was that called again?

[00:24:07] Alessandra: Have you been PWNED?

[00:24:09] Greg: Have I been PWNED dot PWNED people?

[00:24:11] Alessandra: Have I been PWNED? And I've used that a few times and it was alarming what I saw there. Also the one that Bailey mentioned is called Muse. As in when your muse shows up to work with you, it is called Muse score. I didn't know that it had those kinds of sharing options that you could toggle on and toggle off.

[00:24:31] Alessandra: That's very interesting. I wanna welcome Melanie into the room. Melanie. Today we are talking about what happens when your security has been breached in your own creative work. We had a pretty serious breach with one of our own this week, and so we're just kind of reeling from that a little bit and just.

[00:24:51] Alessandra: Wondering if, you have, if you have had a breach, could be like a physical one into your own space, or your own [00:25:00] published work, or it could be an account or something that you've created in the digital world. Have you had experience with that?

[00:25:09]

[00:25:09] Melanie: Very minimal, although something happened to someone must have hacked my original Facebook account and I couldn't get back on. But I haven't really, I mean since art school, which was up in, up through the eighties, I can find some of my stuff still there. And I can find the design work that I did for Look of Love the business in Asheville, but there's no real way of my knowing whether it's been swiped or not.

[00:25:36] Melanie: But I would be very nervous about putting written or musical or visual workup in a place where I don't know everybody, I guess these days you just can't do that.

[00:25:47] Alessandra: Yeah. Yeah. And you're one of those really interesting we tend to collect the polymaths here in Creative Work Hour have you ever seen any of your artwork somewhere that it didn't belong and [00:26:00] that was not your idea?

[00:26:02] Melanie: That was, the arts from. Prior to 81, and I actually haven't looked to see if that's happened One time I remember finding something that wasn't quite right, but interestingly enough, the design for the prenatal ultrasound place, I did find where it shouldn't have been and under different names.

[00:26:20] Alessandra: I wanted to ask you about, 'cause there's your work as an artist, there's your work as a photographer, which is different from. Other art types that you've done in the East Village in New York, there is a side of a building that has a mural that's based on one of your pieces of photography, and

[00:26:43] Melanie: two, two of them, there's two of them.

[00:26:44] Melanie: The photo of Evelyn, and the photo of Dennis Charles. Both of those are based on my photos.

[00:26:50] Alessandra: Did you know that was happening at the time, or did you have to catch up to your work Being

[00:26:54] Melanie: I, Anna Pasta, who's the president of that building told me she was gonna do it and [00:27:00] I offered her those photos.

[00:27:01] Alessandra: Wow. It's very interesting how all of these things come together and it could be that somebody has an idea to use your things and they haven't necessarily checked with you first, and these things can be worked. These things can be worked out, can't they, Devin? What have you found one, one of the things that, that we've worked on is, is, and a big change that we're making here in Creative Work Hour come January 1st is we're changing

[00:27:28] Alessandra: how we stream music because we found out that the way that everybody does it online is not actually legally correct to do. And so we are changing services at the first of the year so that we're not inadvertently. Stealing somebody else's creative work for our own enjoyment while we're doing our own creative work here.

[00:27:51] Alessandra: So Devin, do you have anything to add about ways to protect ourselves as creatives?

[00:27:56] Devin: Bailey introduced a very good idea, and that [00:28:00] is, trademarking and copyright and whatever's applicable. That's something you can do to protect it in a different kind of way that even if it's stolen, it can't really be utilized if you're diligent because they don't own the right to use it, even if they get their hands on a digitally or physically.

[00:28:15] Devin: I think Bailey may have come up with some intellectual property, unless he someone else's in, and I hadn't heard of it before, but the line that he used, which is things that you think are secure, may not be as secure as you think. I think I'm gonna go launch a privacy startup right now with that is the byline 'cause that was awesome.

[00:28:34] Devin: But I'll finish all this. Comment. One of the most interesting theft stories that I have heard recently is the London Graffiti artist, Banksy who's, works are now being auctioned off for millions. Is it millions? It's a lot. And, but recently when he reveals. A new work, which is graffiti, obviously it's on a public space, on a building, it's on something physical.

[00:28:57] Devin: People are going and finding ways to steal it, to [00:29:00] cut it out of the structure or remove the physical medium that it's on and take it and take off with it. And so that's just like what, there's still real world physical, tangible art theft going on. And then of course there's the Louvre, there's just nothing safe.

[00:29:16] Devin: Yeah. You've gotta be security conscious all the time.

[00:29:19] Alessandra: Thank you for that Devin. And the last thing that I wanna ask you about that is what is

[00:29:24] Alessandra: for people that don't know attorneys or

[00:29:28] Alessandra: what is just like the base simple way that you can claim your work as your own? What is the dirt, simplest thing that I could do?

[00:29:39] Devin: For written work, you could write copyright. You could, if you're using a word processor, you can write copyright, whatever the year is your name. You could have that as a footer on say, Microsoft Word or whatever you're using. And that will, if that is printed on there, if it's attached

[00:29:55] Devin: to the work, then you have copyrighted it and you can [00:30:00] then defend that if need be.

[00:30:02] Alessandra: There you go. Thank you so much for that.

[00:30:04] Shadows: You might wanna remember that anything that you've published on the blockchain is dated and recorded right then. So it's there for life

[00:30:15] Alessandra: and that's something interesting. This week I noticed the the Cuban author Roswell Borge.

[00:30:22] Alessandra: Even though what he is publishing to the high blockchain is on the blockchain and therefore it's on his account. He's the author. There's the timestamp. It is. It is set in a produced block forever, and yet at the bottom of everything that he publishes, he writes the year and Roswell Borge. And why not?

[00:30:46] Alessandra: It's a good practice.

[00:30:48] Melanie: Can you write copyright on that as well and will that make any difference?

[00:30:52] Devin: You can write copyright, you can use the copyright symbol. Yes, it's helpful. It's helpful to say, this is why my name is on this 'cause I'm [00:31:00] asserting my copyright.

[00:31:01] Devin: Very nice. It's been a really helpful episode and I think that brings us to time. And Greg, what time is it?

[00:31:08] Greg: It's that time again, you've wasted some perfectly good time listening to the creative work, our podcast, when you could have been doing something else, but no, you chose to listen anyway.

[00:31:19] Greg: But how about you? We'd love to hear have you had any of your creative work stolen and how did that happen? What did you decide to do about it what happened exactly. Let us know@creativeworkhour.com. In the meantime, come back next week and we'll have another interesting creative discussion. in.